Daf 61b
רַב נַחְמָן בַּר יִצְחָק אָמַר מַאי לֹא נִסְתַּלְּקָה לֹא נִסְתַּלְּקָה לְבַטָּלָה מַאי הִיא רַבָּנַן אָמְרִי שְׁבִיבָא הֲוָה מְשַׁדְּרָא רַב פָּפָּא אָמַר אוּשְׁפִּיזָא הֲוָה נָקֵט וְזִימְנִין הָכָא וְזִימְנִין הָכָא
תְּנַן הָתָם וּכְשֶׁעָלוּ בְּנֵי הַגּוֹלָה הוֹסִיפוּ עָלָיו אַרְבַּע אַמּוֹת מִן הַדָּרוֹם וְאַרְבַּע אַמּוֹת מִן הַמַּעֲרָב כְּמִין גַּמָּא מַאי טַעְמָא אָמַר רַב יוֹסֵף מִשּׁוּם דְּלָא סָפֵק
אֲמַר לֵיהּ אַבָּיֵי הַשְׁתָּא מִקְדָּשׁ רִאשׁוֹן דִּכְתִיב בֵּיהּ יְהוּדָה וְיִשְׂרָאֵל רַבִּים כַּחוֹל אֲשֶׁר עַל שְׂפַת הַיָּם סְפֵק מִקְדָּשׁ שֵׁנִי דִּכְתִיב בֵּיהּ כָּל הַקָּהָל כְּאֶחָד אַרְבַּע רִבּוֹא לֹא סָפֵק אֲמַר לֵיהּ הָתָם אֵשׁ שֶׁל שָׁמַיִם מְסַיַּיעְתָּן הָכָא אֵין אֵשׁ שֶׁל שָׁמַיִם מְסַיַּיעְתָּן
כִּי אֲתָא רָבִין אָמַר רַבִּי שִׁמְעוֹן בֶּן פַּזִּי מִשּׁוּם בַּר קַפָּרָא שִׁיתִין הוֹסִיפוּ מֵעִיקָּרָא סְבוּר מִזְבַּח אֲדָמָה שֶׁהוּא אָטוּם בָּאֲדָמָה
וּלְבַסּוֹף סְבוּר שְׁתִיָּה כַּאֲכִילָה וּמַאי מִזְבַּח אֲדָמָה שֶׁהוּא מְחוּבָּר בַּאֲדָמָה שֶׁלֹּא יִבְנֶנּוּ לֹא עַל גַּבֵּי כִּיפִּים
הוּא דְּאָמַר כְּרַבִּי נָתָן דְּתַנְיָא רַבִּי נָתָן אוֹמֵר מִזְבֵּחַ שֶׁל שִׁילֹה שֶׁל נְחוֹשֶׁת הָיָה חָלוּל וּמָלֵא אֲבָנִים
וּלְאַחַר שֶׁיְּפָרְקוּ הַלְוִיִּם אֶת הַמִּשְׁכָּן
מַהוּ דְּתֵימָא אִיפְּסִיל לְהוּ בְּיוֹצֵא קָא מַשְׁמַע לַן
וְאֵימָא הָכִי נָמֵי אָמַר קְרָא וְנָסַע אֹהֶל מוֹעֵד אַף עַל פִּי שֶׁנָּסַע אֹהֶל מוֹעֵד הוּא
אָמַר רַב הוּנָא אָמַר רַב מִזְבֵּחַ שֶׁל שִׁילֹה שֶׁל אֲבָנִים הָיָה דְּתַנְיָא רַבִּי אֱלִיעֶזֶר בֶּן יַעֲקֹב אוֹמֵר מָה תַּלְמוּד לוֹמַר אֲבָנִים אֲבָנִים אֲבָנִים שָׁלֹשׁ פְּעָמִים אֶחָד שֶׁל שִׁילֹה וְאֶחָד שֶׁל נוֹב וְגִבְעוֹן וּבֵית עוֹלָמִים
מֵתִיב רַב אַחָא בַּר אַמֵּי אֵשׁ שֶׁיָּרְדָה מִן הַשָּׁמַיִם בִּימֵי מֹשֶׁה לֹא נִסְתַּלְּקָה מֵעַל מִזְבַּח הַנְּחוֹשֶׁת אֶלָּא בִּימֵי שְׁלֹמֹה וְאֵשׁ שֶׁיָּרְדָה בִּימֵי שְׁלֹמֹה לֹא נִסְתַּלְּקָה עַד שֶׁבָּא מְנַשֶּׁה וְסִילְּקָהּ וְאִם אִיתָא מֵעִיקָּרָא הוּא דְּאִיסְתַּלַּק לֵיהּ
and after the Levites dismantled the Tabernacle. (1) You might argue that [in the latter case the flesh] became unfit through having gone out [of bounds]. (2) Therefore he informs us [otherwise]. Yet say that that is indeed so? — Scripture saith, Then the tent of meeting shall set forward: (3) even when it has set forward4 it is ‘the tent of meeting.’ (5) R. Hisda (6) said in Rab's name: The altar at Shiloh was of stones. For it was taught. R. Eleazar b. Jacob said: Why is ‘stones’ stated three times? (7) One refers to that of Shiloh, another to that of Nob and Gibeon, and the third to that of the Eternal House. (8) R. Aha b. Ammi raised an objection: The fire which descended from heaven in the days of Moses (9) did not depart from the brazen altar until the days of Solomon. (10) And the fire which descended in the days of Solomon (11) did not depart until Manasseh came and removed it. Now if this is correct, (12) it should have departed earlier? (13) — He [R. Hisda in Rab's name] made his statement in accordance with R. Nathan. For it was taught, R. Nathan said: The altar at Shiloh was of brass; it was hollow, and filled with stones. (14) R. Nahman b. Isaac said: What does ‘it did not depart’ mean? It did not depart [disappear] into nothingness. (15) How was it? — The Rabbis said: It sent forth sparks. (16) R. Papa said: It took up its abode now here, now there. We learnt elsewhere: And when the Children of the Exile went up [to Eretz Israel], (17) they added thereto (18) four cubits on the south and four cubits on the west, like a [Greek] gamma. (19) What is the reason? — Said R. Joseph: Because it [the first] was not sufficient. Said Abaye to him: If it was sufficient for the first Temple, when it is written, Judah and Israel were many, as the sand which is by the sea [shore] in multitude; (20) would it be insufficient for the second Temple. whereof it is written, The whole congregation together was forty and two thousand [etc.]? (21) — There [in the first Temple] the heavenly fire assisted them; (22) here [in the second Temple] it did not assist them. When Rabin came [from Palestine], he said in the name of R. Simeon b. Pazzi: They added the pits [to its structure]. (23) At first they had thought that an ‘altar of earth’ meant that it was to be closed in with earth. (24) But subsequently they held that drinking must be like eating. (25) and what does ‘an altar of earth’ mean? that it should be attached to the earth, not built on rocks
(1). ↑ ‘Before the Levites set up the Tabernacle’ cannot be understood literally, but means whilst the Tabernacle was standing, this phrase merely being used in contrast to the second half. Thus the two places are: (i) within the normal precincts of the Tabernacle (within the ‘hangings’ — v. p. 266, n. 6) whilst it stood; and (ii) likewise within the normal precincts, but after the Tabernacle had been dismantled. The altar, however, was still standing.
(2). ↑ I.e. when the Tabernacle is dismantled, and the hangings are no longer there, the flesh should be regarded as having gone out of bounds, and so disqualified.
(3). ↑ Num. II, 17.
(4). ↑ Hence dismantled.
(5). ↑ It still retains its sanctity, in the sense that the flesh is not regarded as having gone out of bounds.
(6). ↑ Emended text (Sh. M). Cur. edd. Huna.
(7). ↑ Ex. XX, 22: And if thou make Me an altar of stone, thou shalt not build it of hewn stones; Deut XXVII, 5-6: And there shalt thou build... an altar of stones... Thou shalt build the altar of the Lord thy God of unhewn stones.
(8). ↑ The Temple at Jerusalem.
(9). ↑ V. Lev. IX, 24.
(10). ↑ Rashi: A pot was placed over it when they travelled, and the fire remained in its place. When Solomon built the Temple, this fire left the brazen altar and moved to the stone altar in the Temple.
(11). ↑ This same fire.
(12). ↑ That the altar at Shiloh was of stone.
(13). ↑ As soon as the stone altar was built at Shiloh, the fire should have departed from Moses’ brazen altar.
(14). ↑ The answer is not clear. Presumably it means that it was Moses’ brazen altar except that the hollow was filled with stones instead of earth.
(15). ↑ Lit., ‘in vain,’ ‘for no purpose.’ Until Solomon built the Temple the fire did not completely depart from Moses’ altar which was still in existence, for though it did move to the altar at Shiloh, some of it nevertheless remained on that of Moses.
(16). ↑ When the fat, etc., was burnt on the stone altar, sparks and flames shot out from the heavenly fire on the brazen altar, which was there too, on to the stone altar.
(17). ↑ I.e., when the Jews returned from Babylon.
(18). ↑ To the altar.
(19). ↑ The altar in the first Temple was twenty-eight cubits square overall, whilst that of the second Temple was thirty-two cubits. The addition would thus be a strip four cubits broad in triangular shape, like a Greek gamma thus:
(20). ↑ I Kings IV, 20. The bracketed word ‘shore’, not in the M.T., is found in some old Hebrew MSS.
(21). ↑ Ezra II, 64.
(22). ↑ To burn the sacrifices quickly.
(23). ↑ In Solomon's Temple there was a pit near the south-west of the altar, into which the altar libations were directly poured. But in the second Temple the altar was extended on the south and the west, so that the place of the pit was incorporated in it, and over against this extension on top of the altar they made holes for the libations to flow’ into the pit below.
(24). ↑ Not hollow or perforated in any way.
(25). ↑ As ‘eating’ (the consumption of the flesh) was on top of the altar itself, so must ‘drinking’ (the libations) be on top of the altar itself.
(1). ↑ ‘Before the Levites set up the Tabernacle’ cannot be understood literally, but means whilst the Tabernacle was standing, this phrase merely being used in contrast to the second half. Thus the two places are: (i) within the normal precincts of the Tabernacle (within the ‘hangings’ — v. p. 266, n. 6) whilst it stood; and (ii) likewise within the normal precincts, but after the Tabernacle had been dismantled. The altar, however, was still standing.
(2). ↑ I.e. when the Tabernacle is dismantled, and the hangings are no longer there, the flesh should be regarded as having gone out of bounds, and so disqualified.
(3). ↑ Num. II, 17.
(4). ↑ Hence dismantled.
(5). ↑ It still retains its sanctity, in the sense that the flesh is not regarded as having gone out of bounds.
(6). ↑ Emended text (Sh. M). Cur. edd. Huna.
(7). ↑ Ex. XX, 22: And if thou make Me an altar of stone, thou shalt not build it of hewn stones; Deut XXVII, 5-6: And there shalt thou build... an altar of stones... Thou shalt build the altar of the Lord thy God of unhewn stones.
(8). ↑ The Temple at Jerusalem.
(9). ↑ V. Lev. IX, 24.
(10). ↑ Rashi: A pot was placed over it when they travelled, and the fire remained in its place. When Solomon built the Temple, this fire left the brazen altar and moved to the stone altar in the Temple.
(11). ↑ This same fire.
(12). ↑ That the altar at Shiloh was of stone.
(13). ↑ As soon as the stone altar was built at Shiloh, the fire should have departed from Moses’ brazen altar.
(14). ↑ The answer is not clear. Presumably it means that it was Moses’ brazen altar except that the hollow was filled with stones instead of earth.
(15). ↑ Lit., ‘in vain,’ ‘for no purpose.’ Until Solomon built the Temple the fire did not completely depart from Moses’ altar which was still in existence, for though it did move to the altar at Shiloh, some of it nevertheless remained on that of Moses.
(16). ↑ When the fat, etc., was burnt on the stone altar, sparks and flames shot out from the heavenly fire on the brazen altar, which was there too, on to the stone altar.
(17). ↑ I.e., when the Jews returned from Babylon.
(18). ↑ To the altar.
(19). ↑ The altar in the first Temple was twenty-eight cubits square overall, whilst that of the second Temple was thirty-two cubits. The addition would thus be a strip four cubits broad in triangular shape, like a Greek gamma thus:
(20). ↑ I Kings IV, 20. The bracketed word ‘shore’, not in the M.T., is found in some old Hebrew MSS.
(21). ↑ Ezra II, 64.
(22). ↑ To burn the sacrifices quickly.
(23). ↑ In Solomon's Temple there was a pit near the south-west of the altar, into which the altar libations were directly poured. But in the second Temple the altar was extended on the south and the west, so that the place of the pit was incorporated in it, and over against this extension on top of the altar they made holes for the libations to flow’ into the pit below.
(24). ↑ Not hollow or perforated in any way.
(25). ↑ As ‘eating’ (the consumption of the flesh) was on top of the altar itself, so must ‘drinking’ (the libations) be on top of the altar itself.
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